Christoph,

I am so lucky and so grateful that you are there and working on this puzzle!

Thank you for referring me back to those postings.

I may have mentioned in a past entry that when we took Dad to Siegburg and tried to figure out where the cemetery was, and he remembered it was a long walk to the location, all we found that he thought could have been the place was a patch of nice green grass.

I need to write Ernst another note to see how his Grandson is doing and to see if he would like a photo of the Sisters. I can ask him to let me know when he thinks Mr. Stolz will be able to communicate with us. I have lots of questions and I am sure you do too. I wonder if Mr. Stolz personally went to the site and how he obtained his information. The fact he obtained information implies it is somewhere. Does the same information he found on Dryden exist for everyone and if so, where.

If you want, I can send you a photo of the Sisters off line, next week when Steve returns. Hopefully, we will all be going to see them, based on your schedule late Sept. or October. They were precious! I just saw the photos yesterday.

Speaking of photos, I wonder where the mortuary door was. The Sister said there was no mortuary but Dad knew he did certain work.

I better post this so I do not lose it because I want to go look at an earlier post where you commented on the door.

Bye for the moment,

Jean J

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Hello Christoph,

I am back. Well where the mortuary was actually located may never be known. All I know is from Dad's memory it had to be one of those rounded, Moorish type doors. Thank goodness I never bought a house with that style/shaped door.

I was even confused about the Abbey this time and I am eager to get out all of the old photos and the new. That photo I sent in the earlier post does show the building on the left as stone and not stuccoed over.

I want to locate a map of Siegburg from some point during or at the end of the War. I ordered it several years ago. I can figure out, actually Steve can figure out, how best to get it to you. I do not believe the military library that I purchased it from put a copyright or anything on it.

Well now I understand that POW's had numbers and I wonder about the ones who were liberated from Waldbrol. Where are their records and who did the administration of the liberation. The men had to be taken to other hospitals from there. Like Norton went to Paris. I doubt the hospitals in Paris would have the information or if they did, that it would be sorted in a way that it could be accessed on who came from Waldbrol.

I have so much more to comment on this but briefly Mr. Norton never joined the Ex POW organization in America. When I asked Mr. Norton his POW number recently, he said he did not know he had one. I do not know when Dad joined the POW organization, but he did, and he was always looking for members who had been at Siegburg. He never found any. He never had closure on what happened to all of the boys! or the Camp! or on anyone!

Your research on the Englishman shows even he, with those horrible problems lived. Did he get out before Dad was walked to Siegburg that fateful October day in 1944 or was he too one of the boys. Did the Englishmen get taken to Waldbrol or was he one of the ones that was too ill to move and found at Siegburg.

While unlikely maybe some of those that survived are still alive today. Mr. Norton was young and in good health and maybe there were others like him because it was the Battle of the Bulge that brought so many men to Siegburg. In some of Dad's Vmails home while he does not refer to the battle by name he talks about all of the new cases coming in and the conditions outside.

Gad I wonder too many things, but where was the SS Officer (Captain) physically located that directed cases to Siegburg. Was it just his outfit or other outfits in some geographic area that sent the men to Siegburg. Was there a central point, (where numbers might have been given) and if so is there history on that outfit. How do you locate SS Officers by name.

There was the Doctor, that we now know was SS. I assume the Commandant had to be. And I have the SS Captain's name that placed Dad at Siegburg. Is there a way to find information out on the Doctor that might lead to the Commandant.

If I go to the NARA Library at St. Louis, it could take days, but I could try to locate records on those that had been buried at Siegburg. And someday, I plan to do that, but now is there still any chance that someone is still alive that was there.

I am still trying to figure out what outfit debriefed Dad. No luck so far!

Gad, day seems like it is over and I must get to Mom's - bringing lunch.

Thank you for Everything Christoph!

Jean J

I'm reading "The last Offensive" by charles B. MacDonald at the moment, downloaded here from the main site, and found the attached map in the book which shows the units arraund Siegburg in early April 45. I have marked Siegburg on the map.

Also from this book, page 366:

"In the course of the advance almost every division overran a number of military hospitals, and several units liberated prisoner-of-war camps. At Waldbroel, not far north of the Sieg River, the 78th Division freed 71 hospitalized American soldiers, only 2 of whom were able to walk. At Hemer the 7th Armored Division rescued 23,302 prisoners of war, most of them Russians, living under appalling conditions of filth, disease, and hunger. The only Americans, a group of 99, were in fair condition, having been assigned to the camp only a few days."

...but no word about Siegburg

Christoph

Oops, her's the map.

Christoph,

You are awesome! I have some MacDonald books and think they are great. I do not have the one you referred to and will look for it. And I will print the map.

I have been looking through books too for maps of what was going on around Siegburg that mid March of 1945. A few thoughts on other Divisions - maybe the 9th, but then have to find some kind of After Action Reports for them, so trying to narrow it down.

I am anxious to find and then send you the WW2 map of the area. Maybe it will give you a clue as to where the POW cemetery would have been located. It will be fascinating to hear what you think of how the town appeared to be then. Now that I have recently been to Siegburg (and I really like it there) I am anxious to again look over the map.

Bye for the moment,

Jean J

Hooray, found the receipt where I purchased the map I was referring to.

I am off to Mom's and tomorrow or very late tonight will continue my pursuit of finding the map.

Jean J

I checked a lot of photos of dog tags and identity cards of prisoners of war in german camps, nearly all numbers are below 20,000, and all of them also name the camp, as we see it on your (Jean's) dad's letters. I found a german forum where this question is also discussed and all panelists agree that the numbers were given in the camp, unique only for the camp. Sometimes numbers were already given in a FRONTSTALAG near the front or a DULAG, but it seems as if the prisoners were normally not numbered before reaching the STALAG. On the POW identity card it looks as if they got the card quickly after beeing caught, but the numbers were filled in later.

Christoph

Wow, Christoph, your messages always take a lot of time to digest!

The logic you propose on the numbering scheme makes sense. I was just thinking because Siegburg was a Hospital that they kept track of how many got sent there - but that would be too complicated to track and know that some had been moved out of the Hospital so there was room for more. I could keep coming up with lots of combinations of what ifs, and then Siegburg could have been unique in how it was handled anyway.

One way for me to get more info is for Mr. Norton to request his records and see if there is a POW # there. But may not be a POW # on whatever records exist. My Dad was conscious of his number and used it in later paperwork.

But I am optimistic - remember the After Action Report on the liberating of Waldprol - I have the name of the lady who typed them up for the 309th Infantry Regiment. Now since she did this in 2004 who knows what her condition is or what was her connection to want to do that labor of love. I left a message on a telephone answering machine over a week ago and said I would call back. I said that I wanted to thank her for preserving the information and making it so available.

I am going to post cause machine just acted funny.

JJ

So back to the numbering scheme. It would make sense if a Camp had say a range of numbers like 13,000 to 14,000 that they could use. But those early men you found were # 11,000 and I can not imagine that they had over 2,000 more POW's that early on get taken all the way to Siegburg. But, ...

Will be interesting to see numbers of other prisoners in other Camps. I wonder if that AF gentleman that was in the plane with Dryden would know his number. And also a Medic's story that I unearthed and talked to the gentleman in Massachusetts. Actually I know some other Ex POW's and could pursue this numbering system at some future time and maybe get lucky so we could figure it out. I will put it in my "To Do" list.

Now back to the 309th Regiment - I had planned to ask the lady I was calling about the AAR (After Action Reports) if there was a central source or person where I could put in a request to learn more about the liberators and the Medical Detachment and their reports. Maybe I could really get lucky and someone would be alive. So that too is on my list.

However, last night at Mom's, the Care Giver, who knows of my WW2 interests showed me a book she had that was from 1944 -1945 and was printed by Eukerdruck K.-G. Marburg (Lahn), Germany. It was kind of like an address book (no stories on what they did during the War) on the 309th Regiment, Men of Diehard, and John H. Ondrick was the Col, Inf. Cmd. in the Care Givers past, she knew some families that were part of this outift. Pretty strange! So I will pursue this desire to learn more about the Waldbrol liberators through that source as well.

More to follow,

Jean J

Now last but not least, as the expression goes, the disc with the Jan. 1945 Siegburg map has been located. Steve just printed it again, and I see the problem, as I think you will, that I need more North and West information.

Steve is setting it up so you can click the address to access the map.

I will send the address as soon as I get it.

Christoph, as always, Thank You so much for trying to solve all of the puzzles!!!

Jean J